by SaturnCat » Mon Apr 06, 2009 07:18 pm
Hello there.
First off I have a Saturn SL1 sedan of 1999. Recently I had gotten into a minor accident where the other driver accidentally backed up in front of my car. It left a dent on the center of my hood to where it not only locks completely anymore (it still latches but isn't fully shut) and it looks pushed in now that the sides are opened a tad. My headlights are ajar a bit and one has a minor crack. There was mention of another dent inside of the frame...but other than that, My car continues to work fine as it always has, the lights still work by the way.
Now everything has been running smoothly so far with my insurance company (Esurance) getting the claim in quick and getting a Appraisal guy to come down and take pictures of the damage for an estimate.
From here, things become confusing and a mess. I'm told by my insurance company that the total estimate was so high a number and apparently over or equal to the current value of my car that they have to claim it as a Total Loss. What I find hard to understand is how it came to such a redicilous amount. I may sounding to overly dramatic, but how does getting a new hood, headlights, and possibly bumper (even though that looks to be in good condition) cost up to 4000. Again, there may be more damage that the Appraisal guy found, but here's the thing:
- My Insurance Company sent me info about what happens when a car is declared Total Loss, the estimate total, and info on how my car is compared to other current value prices...but where is the info on what was damaged and its estimated prices? How much of the car are they considering damaged?
-I recall now that the Appraisal guy took more pictures than just the front (also the inside of my car and the back) Was that necessary when evaluating the damage from the accident or was that too much, because I have a feeling the estimate derived from the total need of repair on the entire car than just the accidental damage...but is that legal? How does the other things I need to take care of on my own time fit with the cost of repairs from the accident?
I've had several people and friends tell me different situations and advice about car repairs and handling insurance companies. I'm told I shouldn't try to get a second opinion by a different auto body shop I may plan to go to AT LEAST get an estimate, not start the work immediately. But I hear that if I do, it could forfeit the possibility of the driver at fault to help pay for the repairs. Is that true?
Any information will be helpful and figuring out what to do. I've read facts that if I take the settlement and still keep my call, I won't get the full value but at least I can keep my car. I know I would have to get a new certificate of salvage and have someone inspect it to make sure its safe for the road legally.
First off I have a Saturn SL1 sedan of 1999. Recently I had gotten into a minor accident where the other driver accidentally backed up in front of my car. It left a dent on the center of my hood to where it not only locks completely anymore (it still latches but isn't fully shut) and it looks pushed in now that the sides are opened a tad. My headlights are ajar a bit and one has a minor crack. There was mention of another dent inside of the frame...but other than that, My car continues to work fine as it always has, the lights still work by the way.
Now everything has been running smoothly so far with my insurance company (Esurance) getting the claim in quick and getting a Appraisal guy to come down and take pictures of the damage for an estimate.
From here, things become confusing and a mess. I'm told by my insurance company that the total estimate was so high a number and apparently over or equal to the current value of my car that they have to claim it as a Total Loss. What I find hard to understand is how it came to such a redicilous amount. I may sounding to overly dramatic, but how does getting a new hood, headlights, and possibly bumper (even though that looks to be in good condition) cost up to 4000. Again, there may be more damage that the Appraisal guy found, but here's the thing:
- My Insurance Company sent me info about what happens when a car is declared Total Loss, the estimate total, and info on how my car is compared to other current value prices...but where is the info on what was damaged and its estimated prices? How much of the car are they considering damaged?
-I recall now that the Appraisal guy took more pictures than just the front (also the inside of my car and the back) Was that necessary when evaluating the damage from the accident or was that too much, because I have a feeling the estimate derived from the total need of repair on the entire car than just the accidental damage...but is that legal? How does the other things I need to take care of on my own time fit with the cost of repairs from the accident?
I've had several people and friends tell me different situations and advice about car repairs and handling insurance companies. I'm told I shouldn't try to get a second opinion by a different auto body shop I may plan to go to AT LEAST get an estimate, not start the work immediately. But I hear that if I do, it could forfeit the possibility of the driver at fault to help pay for the repairs. Is that true?
Any information will be helpful and figuring out what to do. I've read facts that if I take the settlement and still keep my call, I won't get the full value but at least I can keep my car. I know I would have to get a new certificate of salvage and have someone inspect it to make sure its safe for the road legally.
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 08:21 pm Post Subject:
Saturn cat, I ran an estimate based on the information you provided. I used new generic parts for pricing since e-surance normally calculated with imitation parts. New bumper, reinforcements uppper, necessary trim, hood, hood latch, paint under the hood and including blending adjacent fenders. I figured two new a/m headlites and housings, including 2 hours of repair to upper tie bar and I only come up with 2200.00 in repairs. Using used parts prices would drop the cost to about 1800 or less based on what I could find in my locale.
Not being able to see the actual damage and the condition of the vehicle, I can't make a determination that these costs would be sufficient to repair your vehicle but generally speaking a lite bump on most cars ranges between 2250 to 2750 using statistics generally averaged in the collision industry.
The 99 saturn SL1 sedan black book gives a guide of between 2900 in value for clean and 2150 for average. I am betting your vehicle ranges somewhere in between those figures.
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 08:22 pm Post Subject:
Appraisers usually take photos from all 4 corners of the vehicle. This is a good practice. This is done for several reasons... to document unrelated/prior damages. To document the over-all condition of the vehicle in case it's a total loss and to document the damages on the vehicle at the time of the accident (in case the owner claims additional damages that were not there at the time of the inspection, etc.).
Typically I don't send out a copy of the damage report on a total loss vehicle as the owner may later claim that I gave them the impression that the vehicle was repairable. But I will mail it out of the person gives me a good reason. The owner thinking the cost to repair was high would be a good reason. You should call the adjuster and ask if they can fax you a copy for your review.
You'd be surprised at the cost to repair vehicles theses day. $40-$50/hour for body shop labor.... $400 for a hood, $100 for a head lamp assembly, etc. I'm betting if the estimate is $4000 that there is some "frame" time added (though, I thought Saturn's were unibody vehicles).
You can review the appraisal written to make sure there are no unrelated damages included.
A vehicle is usually considered a total loss when the cost of repairs are 80% of it's value. This amount differs a bit from carrier to carrier and state to state. Part of the "problem" is that your car is 10 years old. I'm thinking the value is not very high.
I'm not sure why getting an estimate would stop the other carrier from paying for the loss. That is, this is incorrect and I'm not sure why someone would be thinking this.
If you keep the vehicle the insurance company will pay the loss less the salvage value.
I'd also recommend obtaining a copy of the insurance companies total loss valuation to make sure it's accurate. Check the mileage and the options that they considered.
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 09:50 pm Post Subject:
Here is an unformatted estimate based on prevailing rates in my area. Unless there was radiator or condenser damage or removal of them to repair upper support was required, I see no reason your vehicle repair should exceed this amount and could be less with used parts or opting not to paint under the hood, or blend the fenders which could save you about 350.00.
You could retain your salvage and you could make your vehicle safe and driveable minus some cosmetics for less than 1500.
Description Part # Price Qty Labor Paint Other
FRONT BUMPER 1996-99
Replace Bumper Cover (SL, SL1, SW1) 21110670 $242.00 1 Included
Replace Lower Cover Support 21111180 $31.21 1 Included
Replace Bumper Cover Brkt 21110752 $23.01 1 Included
Replace Bumper Cover Applique 21110425 $14.35 1 Included 0.5 hrs.
0.2hrs. Clearcoat 0.2 hrs.
Replace Cover Emblem 21111139 $9.22 1 Included
FRONT LAMPS COMBINATION LAMP
Replace Combination Lamp Assy (Left) 21111169 $178.00 1 0.2 Body hrs.
Replace Lamp Mounting Brkt (Left) 21111665 $12.36 1 0.3 Body hrs.
Replace Lamp Mounting Brkt (Right) 21111664 $12.36 1 0.3 Body hrs.
Replace Combination Lamp Assy (Right) 21111170 $173.00 1 0.2 Body hrs.
HOOD
Replace Hood Panel 21110439 $290.00 1 0.8 Body hrs. 2.8 hrs.
1.7hrs. Clearcoat , 1.4hrs. Underside 3.1 hrs.
Replace Hood Latch 21098318 $30.15 1 0.3 Body hrs.
FRONT FENDER
Blend Fender (Right) 21111174 1.3 hrs.
Blend Fender (Left) 21111175 1.3 hrs.
FRONT INNER STRUCTURE FRONT
Repair Front Support Assy 21124394 2.0 Body hrs. 0.4 hrs.
FRONT BUMPER 1996-99
Overhaul O/H Bumper Assy (Includes R&I) 2.4 Body hrs.
FRONT LAMPS COMBINATION LAMP
Check/Adjust Aim Lamps 0.4 Body hrs.
Totals
Type Hours Rate ($/hr) Total Taxable
OEM Parts $132.66
Aftermarket Parts $883.00
Body Labor 6.9 $46.00 $317.40
Paint Labor 7.7 $46.00 $354.20
Clearcoat Labor 1.9 $46.00 $87.40
Paint Supplies 7.7 $32.00 $246.40
Clearcoat Supplies 1.9 $32.00 $60.80
Taxable Amount $1,322.86
Tax 7.825% $103.51
Nontaxable Amount $759.00
Net Total $2,185.37
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 01:39 am Post Subject:
Ok. SO I finally got a Damage Assessment Report.
So it looks pretty fair, nothing that looks extra that wasn't part of the accident. My only concern is the bumper. I really don't think right now that the bumper needs to be replaced. There are smudges i can clean, but other than that I don't think I need a new one (both my bumpers are tough SOB's, the rear one survived a high speed collusion before).
But now I see why they are declaring my car a Total Loss. Esurance states that one of the reason's they declare it such is if the total repair cost matches 70-80% of the current total car's value. I won't say the totals...but looking at the assessment estimate and what Esurance determined my Total Car Value...I was 1% over 70....1 DANG %!!!
*sigh* Probably a question with new good answer, but is there anyway I can convince my insurance company that my bumper is not THAT DAMAGED. It's not shaking or busted and it doesn't look like its pushed in like the others the assessment says. It would definitely bring the % down a notch. But I think I know the answer.
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 01:49 am Post Subject:
The problem might be the likelyhood of hidden damages. If the apprasier was 99% sure there was no hidden damage then I could see that the adjuster might be able to work with you. But you mentioned possible "frame" damage. Also, are the adding in the bumper or just the cover so far. It really all depends on the possibility of additional damages being found.
You could see if your carrier would work with a Contract for Repair. You find a shop that is willing to repair the damages to the vehicle for a certain amount (70% of the value in this case). If they discover hidden damages related to the accident, they agree to repair it for the same amount. While they agree to this, it's between you and them if they really make those additional repairs. You might also be able to give the apprasial to a shop and see if they can duplicate the repairs for a little less (I'm betting that they could).
Call the adjuster and see if they might be willing to work with you on having the vehicle repaired for a little less or under a Contract for Repair.
As an adjuster I will usually work with people if it's a borderline total loss and they want to keep the vehicle. It's actually less work for me in most cases. I pay the same amount, a body shop makes some money and the owner of the vehicle is happy.
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 02:42 am Post Subject:
To Tcope, could you explain to me again the full details of Contract of Repair? I'm still unsure how that really works.
Wait...never mind, I need to read things more carefully ^_^;
But will putting it under a Contract of Repair cause any problems with getting the other guy (the driver at fault that caused the accident) to help pay for the damages? At this moment, knowing what I know now, I'm focusing more on making sure the other guy pays for what he did.
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 03:17 am Post Subject:
But will putting it under a Contract of Repair cause any problems with getting the other guy (the driver at fault that caused the accident) to help pay for the damages?
It should not as your carrier is prepared to pay 100% of the value of the vehicle (total loss) and your asking them to pay 70% of it's value. The other carrier would be paying less this way as well.Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 04:11 am Post Subject:
I see...that's good to hear.
Any chance you have a link or reference for more info on Contract of Repair? Just so I got the full story and know what I'm saying to the insurance people OR know what they are telling me when I ask.
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 04:55 am Post Subject:
No link. Some adjusters might not have heard of it but I'm betting most supervisors have. How I've always worked it is the owner of the vehicle obtains an estimate from the repair shop. This estimate needs to be for 70% of the value of the vehicle or less. The shop writes a note at the bottom stating that they agree to repair the damages to the vehicle for the amount listed. Basically, instead of it being an estimate it's an agreement (contract) by the shop to repair the damages from the accident for the amount listed. It's more of a contract in that they agree to make the repairs no matter what the cost.
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 08:35 am Post Subject:
ok, that sounds sound.
But I have to ask to clarify so I'm getting this all down correctly. So I have to get an estimate from the body shop I decide to go to first and if their estimate is at least 70% or lower than the insurances estimate, I can ask the auto shop for the Contract of Repair?
Now I've kinda asked my insurance something close to this already, in the way that I asked if I could get a second opinion or get a estimate from a different auto repair shop of my choosing. They said I could still do that but it wouldn't change their estimate on the car and be considered to take off the Total Loss declaration. So my only fear is that even if I mention getting a Contract of Repair with the auto body shop I take it to get the repairs done, will my insurance company truly honor the Contract of Repair option if it does bring their estimate down to 70% or less?
So, to hopefully clarify, do I ask about the Contract to my insurance company first or after I get my second estimate from whoever I decide to take it to? Also, to double check, if I can do the Contract idea, that still won't affect the other guy's insurance company to help pay for the damages...does it?
Sorry if I'm sounding like I'm repeating things. Never been in such a bad situation like this before so it's hard to take in completely and understand all at once.
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