by Guest » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:02 pm
When a life insurance policy gets turned over to the state what happens?
Do you go in front of a judge, judge and jury, or arbitrator? How does this person make a decision? what kind of questions do they ask?
How do they pick the venue? Can you request a change of venue if you feel the court may not be impartial?
Basically what should you expect?
Do you go in front of a judge, judge and jury, or arbitrator? How does this person make a decision? what kind of questions do they ask?
How do they pick the venue? Can you request a change of venue if you feel the court may not be impartial?
Basically what should you expect?
Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 07:58 pm Post Subject:
Lori,
I'm from Missouri so you'd have to "Show Me" the exact case where the named beneficiary DID NOT get the death benefit and it was paid to someone else NOT named as beneficiary.
You wrote:
In the case where a life policy is thru an employer, and the employee dies, with an ''ex'' spouse listed as the beneficiary AND had remarried...it is ASSUMED that they simply forgot to change it to their present spouse
That statement is not correct.
Why would a present SECOND spouse have any more rights to the death benefit rather than a son or daughter or brother or sister or mother or father?
The only way that would be remotely correct would be IF the master group life contract stated that in the case of divorce the ex-spouse as primary beneficiary would be treated as if the ex-spouse predeceased the insured. Then the proceeds would be paid to the named contingent beneficiaries or to the Estate.
I stand by my statement:
Life insurance proceeds are paid DIRECTLY to the named beneficiaries of the contract.
Period.
End of Story.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 09:50 am Post Subject:
Well, well well....it appears that Lori and myself are correct and incorrect.
I suppose we should type in for which state we are making our assertions.
Check out THIS Missouri statute.
461.051. 1. If, after an owner makes a beneficiary designation, the owner's marriage is dissolved or annulled, any provision of the beneficiary designation in favor of the owner's former spouse or a relative of the owner's former spouse is revoked on the date the marriage is dissolved or annulled, whether or not the beneficiary designation refers to marital status. The beneficiary designation shall be given effect as if the former spouse or relative of the former spouse had disclaimed the revoked provision.
THAT is a pathetic piece of legislation. There are many reasons why someone may still want their ex-spouse as a beneficiary. That legislation does nothing more than cause a non-probate asset to be caught up in the probate court system whereby NO ONE can ask the owner of the policy since they're dead.
Now let's contrast that with Florida:
See THIS link.
222.13 Life insurance policies; disposition of proceeds.--
(1) Whenever any person residing in the state shall die leaving insurance on his or her life, the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is designated in the policy, and the proceeds thereof shall be exempt from the claims of creditors of the insured unless the insurance policy or a valid assignment thereof provides otherwise. Notwithstanding the foregoing, whenever the insurance, by designation or otherwise, is payable to the insured or to the insured's estate or to his or her executors, administrators, or assigns, the insurance proceeds shall become a part of the insured's estate for all purposes and shall be administered by the personal representative of the estate of the insured in accordance with the probate laws of the state in like manner as other assets of the insured's estate.
Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:10 am Post Subject:
Lori,
That's great Gary, as you can see so am I! :lol: :wink: What part are you in?I'm from Missouri .
so you'd have to "Show Me" the exact case where the named beneficiary DID NOT get the death benefit and it was paid to someone else NOT named as beneficiary
You ultimately did this yourself...I appreciate that while you got very 'passionate' about pointing out how wrong I was that you did research it to find out...that I wasn't all wet... :)owner's former spouse is revoked on the date the marriage is dissolved or annulled,
I TOLD you! :wink: Now please take these back Gary...That statement is not correct.
I stand by my statement:
Life insurance proceeds are paid DIRECTLY to the named beneficiaries of the contract.
Period.
End of Story.
I suppose we should type in for which state we are making our assertions.
'I' did, friend...seee(i know from personal experience, perhaps just my area)....
THAT is a pathetic piece of legislation. There are many reasons why someone may still want their ex-spouse as a beneficiary
I agree dude, I didn't write it...just know it to be true... :wink: Ok, so we can say that (as I stated) atleast in Missouri, which is where we reside...it's true...Don't feel too bad, this topic came up directly on another post (guy wanted exwife to be bene...and ex worried how to make sure that happened) another great agent, jumped all over me too, (in a nice way) then ask his wife who is some type of administrator over employee benefits, and she too said, 'yep, she's right' (and it wasn't MO)...anyway, I found this out two ways...first (as far as I know) this applys to ALL employee 401K accounts (i know they aren't life ins. but they are a lot of money and they do name a beneficiary)...you must complete an additional form should you want to keep your 'ex' as beneficary...Secondly my younger brother died two years ago, he and his wife, were divorced although they still lived together as married, and have two daughters...she was beneficary on all of his policys...which was what he wanted...(he never remarried)...you would'nt believe the paper work we all had to go thru to make sure she still got all of his money...it was a nightmare....I agree totally a beneficary should stand...however, as I said, apparently they are of the assumption that the decendant just 'forgot' to change it... :roll:Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 01:22 pm Post Subject:
Lori,
I'm from Missouri with from being the operative word.
St. Louis is/was my hometown.
Okay, I'll amend my declarative statement:
IN FLORIDA
Life insurance proceeds are paid DIRECTLY to the named beneficiaries of the contract.
Period.
End of Story.
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 09:27 am Post Subject:
Okay, I'll amend my declarative statement:
:wink: that'll do...thanks :wink:IN FLORIDA
Always glad to meet another show me state native...BTW, I appreciate your posts, and particication, you are a welcome asset to the site, THANKS, again!
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 04:07 pm Post Subject:
Lori,
Just to make a point,.....and correct me if I'm WRONG....., that Missouri Statute doesn't make any distinction between group life insurance or individually owned life insurance and it doesn't state the new spouse automatically gets the death benefit.
It just says the former spouse's beneficiary designation is revoked upon dissolution of marriage which does nothing more than cause the life insurance proceeds to end up in Probate Court. There is no way for the Court to determine the insured's intent regarding the beneficiary designation after the person is dead.
That is horrible legislation and is an example of Big Brother Government at its WORST! For the state govenment to interfere with a private contract with something as contractually fundamental as the beneficiary designation on a life insurance policy is pathetic.
Edit: Added footnote from MO law,
(2001) State statute providing that designation of spouse as beneficiary of a nonprobate asset was automatically revoked upon divorce held to be invalid as preempted by Employee Retirement Income Security Act (ERISA). Egelhoff v. Egelhoff ex rel. Breiner, 121 S.Ct. 1322, 149 L.Ed.2d 264.
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:39 am Post Subject:
Just to make a point,.....and correct me if I'm WRONG....., that Missouri Statute doesn't make any distinction between group life insurance or individually owned life insurance and it doesn't state the new spouse automatically gets the death benefit.
You're right Gary, and honestly all I know is that I've been involved (personally-I'm a P&C adjuster not life)...in three or four of these, and it's always been the 'group' policys that did this, in two instances there were private policys and they paid the named ex without question....one of them the group policy sent a letter stating although the 'ex' was named they were going to pay the present spouse, (they sourced some statute)...but we got that decision reversed...that's all this ole' girl knows, if from these practial experiences ...
nothing more than cause the life insurance proceeds to end up in Probate Court. There is no way for the Court to determine the insured's intent regarding the beneficiary designation after the person is dead.
agreed however, who is 'next of kin' in probate? present spouse of course...which I'd bet is who it's awarded to more times than not...
That is horrible legislation and is an example of Big Brother Government at its WORST! For the state govenment to interfere with a private contract with something as contractually fundamental as the beneficiary designation on a life insurance policy is pathetic.
Preachin' to the choir brother....there should be some sort of rule or statue stating that once the company is informed of a divorce that the person who's life is insured is sent the necessary documents immediately, and 'something' must be signed, either, keep the bene.as is change it etc..that makes sense....Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 06:08 pm Post Subject: Poa forgot to enter poa beside signature on life insurace
our poa who is not receiving any compensation forgot to enter poa beside his signature on a life insurence beneficiary change form
previous beneficiary of life insurance policy was a women who was having an affair with a good friend of mine. She never left her husband but joe fell in love with her. she went back to her husband 2.5 years ago but John never changed beeficiary on life insurance policy.Two week before Joe death my lifetime friend passed away he let everyone know that his ex girl fiiend was not to be the beneficiary. He named two life long friends as the beneficiary of the policy. the poa did not have Joe sign the new beneficiary form but signed it himself but forgot to add poa on the form. everything else is correct. The insurance company does not like the way the form was filled out. What do we do
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 08:25 pm Post Subject:
5th Circuit rules ex-wife can get insurance benefits despite provisions in divorce decree
By USA, Lawyers
Publication: Lawyers USA
Date: Monday, October 23 2006
A husband's designation of his ex-wife as the beneficiary of his life insurance policy survives a divorce decree that purportedly divested her of any interest in his insurance policies, the 5th Circuit has ruled.
The husband died two weeks after the couple's divorce decree was finalized. The decree stated that the ex-wife was divested of all claim to the husband's insurance policies, including his life insurance policy. But the husband never changed his life insurance designation, and the ex-wife was still listed as the primary beneficiary.
Both the ex-wife and the husband's mother filed claims for the insurance proceeds. The insurer contended that the ex-wife - as the designated beneficiary - was the rightful claimant.
The court agreed.
"[T]he party designated as the principal beneficiary prevails, regardless of any contrary state court decrees. ... [The husband] was free at any time to change his designated beneficiary. He chose not to, and there is no indication ... that he intended to, so his designation of [the wife] as the policy's principal beneficiary is controlling."
The court cited similar rulings from the 8th and 11th Circuits.
The U. S. Supreme Court in interpreting a Washington statute similar to Missouri's, ruled that in the case of an ERISA plan, the policy documents control. If it is not an ERISA plan, the Missouri law would probably govern and more than likely preclude the ex-wife's claim.
Just thought I'd give you guys something else to discuss.
Maze
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 10:44 am Post Subject:
Great information 'Maze!
That's the way it should be!
What that Missouri Law has done is turn insurance contract law upside down and allow lawyers and a probate judge to decide a deceased person's intent.
"[T]he party designated as the principal beneficiary prevails, regardless of any contrary state court decrees. ... [The husband] was free at any time to change his designated beneficiary. He chose not to, and there is no indication ... that he intended to, so his designation of [the wife] as the policy's principal beneficiary is controlling."
Sometimes the Court's get it exactly correct!
In Florida there is a specific statute 222.13 (1) that says quite clearly:
Whenever any person residing in the state shall die leaving insurance on his or her life, the said insurance shall inure exclusively to the benefit of the person for whose use and benefit such insurance is designated in the policy, and the proceeds thereof shall be exempt from the claims of creditors...
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