by cera4m » Fri Nov 14, 2008 03:52 pm
My neighbor's dog bit my son. The dog has been declared vicious by the courts. I want to file a claim for damages against her homeowner's insurance. How do I find out who her insurance carrier is?
Posted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 05:30 pm Post Subject:
How come I can't remember telling my home owners thnat I have dogs? I think from what I have read that you have to report this. If its true I want to go check out my policy..I have two dogs..none mena but one really protective of me. I would also like to see Ins. teachers answer.
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 06:38 am Post Subject:
Lori, in her own particularly challenging way :wink: , wrote:
Homeowner/neighbor buys house and policy no dogs...buys ten pit bulls three years after the policy was issued....noooooooow what? hmmmmmm?
Great question. When you fill out an application for HO insurance, just about every carrier I've ever seen asks about dogs and other animals. The question is normally phrased simply asking if there are any animals on the premises, and many specifially ask about dogs. Most carriers have a "watch list" of specifically named breeds that if the applicant owns, the agent can't bind coverage without talking with an underwriter first. That being said, back to your question.
By the way, you should have added to your question "and decided to get into the dogfighting business on the premises." That would give liability people fits. lol :D :D
OK. Let's assume the applicant is being honest and really doesn't have any dogs at the time of application, and buys a dog later. I have never seen language in an application that contains a statement or requirement that an insured report any new dog acquired during the policy period. I think this responsibility rests, frankly, with the producer. :!:
The policy coverage language in certain high-falutin' commercial contracts at times contains language that requires the insured to report any "material change in risk or additional exposure" during the policy period, particularly on a claims-made policy, and this normally has a list of required reports that deal with high-risk, strict liability coverage, like elevators and aviation/marine insurance, but I haven't seen that language in a personal lines contract. Even if there was similar language in a policy, how many policyowners actually read the policy, and of those who do, who would know what a "material change in risk or exposure" is? Even if they understood that, would the average homeowner think that buying a dog would create that situation? Methinks not so much... :roll:
So , the new dog bites the neighbor. Kid crying, doctor/hospital, trauma, psychological damage, blah blah blah. Then it's lawyers, lawsuit, insurance and blah blah blah. Lori, you know how that works. :x
The policy will, in my opinion, have to cover the loss. This is why I feel that this responsibility lies with the agent. It's the agent's job to know of any material change in risk, and the Law of Agency requires agents to report any changes to the carrier. It's a law effected in many states, deals primarily with laws and rules regarding insurers (principals), agents and third-parties. Fiduciary stuff, really boring. So, carriers get a little more than honked off when they discover that an agent had material knowledge of a change in risk or exposure and failed to inform them. I've seen agents terminated for this failure, and it's ugly, ugly, ugly. :evil:
Comments?
InsTeacher 8)
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:19 am Post Subject:
EGG...SAC...A...LACK...LEE...
If an HO policy or app says you have to report a new dog, it's guised as you said, like, 'any changes in risk or exposure'...i've never looked but wouldn't be surprised to see it in all ho policys or apps...again, who looks?
In this case, of course coverage is there...now after the claim is paid..that insured is in for a surprise, get canceled, get rid of the dog or both..then good luck on paying those new premiums buddy...
This could be what happened with our OP's' neighbor, and happens alot....new married (yeah right does anyone get married anymore :roll: ) couple buy new house, then baby comes, then we need a dog to complete the picture perfect family....no misrep or dishonesty they didn't have the dog at the time of the app...
Fire, you don't have to notify anyone unless you policy says something crazy...
Posted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 03:56 pm Post Subject:
Lori, never read my policy. yes sorry I was one of those people. When the agent came he said he was going over everything with us and HAD to see the two mixed breed dogs in the yard. Thet aren't any certain breed just a couple dogs left along the road side to die at different times and they ended up at my house where they were given a collar, license, food water and love. I enjoyed your last post...about the pic. perfect family.
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 03:35 am Post Subject:
Last comment unless I'm challenged again. :wink: By the way, I love a challenge...BRING IT. :!: :!:
Lori wrote:
In this case, of course coverage is there...now after the claim is paid..that insured is in for a surprise, get canceled, get rid of the dog or both..then good luck on paying those new premiums buddy...
Again, right on target. 99% of the time when an insured has a dog bite claim, the insurer will, if they're still within their underwriting investigation period, simply cancel the policy. The insurer will, of course, have to cover the loss, but that's the end of the ballgame. Insurers normally have (depending on state) 60 days after initial issue or renewal to "get off the risk." On an annual HO policy period, that means that in most cases the insurer, after the first 60 days, cannot get off the risk unless they can prove fraud/material misrepresentation in the app. The insurer investigates and pays the claim, and in the meantime the insured gets cancelled.
If the policy has been in effect past 60 days, the insurer is pretty much stuck on the risk until renewal, unless the policy lapses for non-pay. Then the insured is freakin' and needs to get new coverage after they've been cancelled or non-renewed. They start calling around for quotes, and find that for some reason every agent they speak with asks them "Have you incurred any losses within the last 3 years? Good agents won't ask it that way. Good agents would phrase it in a manner that can elicit a lot more information from the applicant. Something like "tell me about any losses or situations that involved your insurance company over the last 3 years."
The insured also is asked if they've been cancelled or non-renewed. :shock:
So, the insured is honest, and tells the agent about the dog bite thing. Every agent she talks to, right at that point, tells her the same thing- "I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do for you." I don't know of any mainstream carriers that will TOUCH an insured with a recent dog bite liability claim. There are exceptions to that statement, of course. Some carriers will work with the insured if they are a historied customer (15+ years and no losses kind of thing) and they get rid of the dog, or have a boatload of other business with the carrier on the books.
Continuing...One of the agents, however, knows about surplus lines insurance coverage, :shock: and hooks her up with a non-admitted carrier that will issue policies for "claim-challenged" insureds- for twice the premium and half the coverage. Commonly, these "off-the-board" policies don't provide liability coverage either, or charge a fortune for the coverage. Most consider it an endorsement. For any of you that have worked with surplus lines carriers and contracts, it's pretty cool, isn't it? :?: Definitely an awakening for the novice, these carriers insure some pretty weird stuff.
Hey Lori- got another challenge? I feel ornery :D I'll stop babbling now...
InsTeacher 8)
On the other hand:
Posted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 11:26 am Post Subject:
Hey Lori- got another challenge?
ah dude, I seriously wasn't trying to challenge you in any way...just like playing 'what if'...ha ha...aren't you thrilled to pieces you never had me in a class!! :shock:No think I'm done with this one...no wait one more....so agent somehow keeps insured from getting canceled...they get rid of dog...actually this used to be quite common in my area, dog bite...ins ordered to get rid of dog by carrier or policy will non-renew, they of course got rid of the dog..ok, so this happens, they keep their policy...then a few years go by they decide, they will get a nice dog, maybe something sweet like a toy poodle (cause they never bite :shock: :roll: )...and gues what ? yep it bite the neighbor kid that is over playing with junior...coverage? claim paid?
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 03:54 am Post Subject:
ah dude, I seriously wasn't trying to challenge you in any way...just like playing 'what if'...ha ha...aren't you thrilled to pieces you never had me in a class!!
I like "what if's." Makes ya think. As far as having you in one of my classes, that could be interesting. Something tells me that it might be kinda fun. OK, onto the question. I'll get to why in a sec, but again- I think this is on the agent.
Your premise is solid:
they of course got rid of the dog..ok, so this happens, they keep their policy...then a few years go by they decide, they will get a nice dog, maybe something sweet like a toy poodle (cause they never bite )...and gues what ? yep it bite the neighbor kid that is over playing with junior...coverage? claim paid?
If the carrier and agent have done their jobs when the insurer agreed to maintain the coverage, this should't be an issue. In addition to making the owners get rid of the dog, most will attach an exclusion as well. It's pretty much up to the agent to let the client know if this occurs, and the company will, of course, send notice in the mail. BUT :arrow: no exclusion attached to the contract means if doggie bite, insurance company pay. :(
Finally, I have to say this:
maybe something sweet like a toy poodle (cause they never bite)
:roll: Those little yap mongrels cause more problems than people imagine. Most people think that toy poodles are harmless little balls of fluff. They are, until they get perturbed. They can inflict some nasty wounds..I've seen a couple of claims for them. Insurers will normally tolerate those "poor excuse for a dog" dogs, but barely. Give me a real dog anyday. :roll:
InsTeacher 8)
Posted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 12:27 pm Post Subject:
Those little yap mongrels cause more problems than people imagine. Most people think that toy poodles are harmless little balls of fluff. They are, until they get perturbed. They can inflict some nasty wounds..I've seen a couple of claims for them. Insurers will normally tolerate those "poor excuse for a dog" dogs, but barely. Give me a real dog anyday.
My post somehow lost my 'eye roll' :roll: by they 'cause they never bite' comment...I know they are one of the top ten in biters....
But of course you are correct...we'll be paying that claim again...unless when the company agreed to keep them they had them sign a dog bit exclusion....which I've personally never seen...doesn't mean they don't exsist, I've just not seen them....
I had three claims with one mail many, in two years at three different insured's homes...poor guy...i wondered (and checked) if he wasn't playing the insurance lottery but he wasn't just reallllllllllllllly bad luck, or dogs hated him..
Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:30 am Post Subject:
This has been a really interesting post. I have been following it. I can imagine a teacher if you were both in his class. LOL. I kind of feel bad for the mailman..poor guy. I guess they probaly would have to get use to that being in their profession.
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