by schao » Tue Aug 19, 2008 07:32 pm
Hello everyone. I am new to this community and have been reading some of the threads on here to find some answers. Well, I couldn't but from all the responses, you all seem like such nice folks and may be able to help me out! Ok, so here is the scenario.
My younger brother's vehicle has liability insurance only and he lives with my mother. My mother took his car without his permission and was in a car accident involving a MAC truck. No parties were injured, his car was totaled and the truck has front damage (appraised at $3,500).
The issue here is that my mother does not have a valid drivers' license and has a mental disability. She somehow got her hands on the keys and drove it around the block (where the accident occured). THANK GOD she or anyone was not injured. His insurance will not cover since she is not on the policy and there is only liability coverage anyways. The owner of the truck has sent him a bill for $3,500.00 that was appraised at a local shop. The damage did not look like $3,500 but this is what the truck driver was quoted. What are his options now? His insurance is refusing to help or even guide him anywhere. Is he SOL unless he press charges on my sick mother for vehicle theft (which is out of the question)? Can he get this appraised himself to confirm if this is a reasonable price for damage? Thanks in advance!
-Sam
My younger brother's vehicle has liability insurance only and he lives with my mother. My mother took his car without his permission and was in a car accident involving a MAC truck. No parties were injured, his car was totaled and the truck has front damage (appraised at $3,500).
The issue here is that my mother does not have a valid drivers' license and has a mental disability. She somehow got her hands on the keys and drove it around the block (where the accident occured). THANK GOD she or anyone was not injured. His insurance will not cover since she is not on the policy and there is only liability coverage anyways. The owner of the truck has sent him a bill for $3,500.00 that was appraised at a local shop. The damage did not look like $3,500 but this is what the truck driver was quoted. What are his options now? His insurance is refusing to help or even guide him anywhere. Is he SOL unless he press charges on my sick mother for vehicle theft (which is out of the question)? Can he get this appraised himself to confirm if this is a reasonable price for damage? Thanks in advance!
-Sam
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:07 am Post Subject:
Was your mother excluded from your brothers policy (not simple, not listed)? If not, his policy should proivide liability coverage at least up to the minimum required by law. Has his insurance company sent a written denial? A claim is not denied until it's in writing.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:35 am Post Subject:
Another thing...what EXACTLY are the reasons for the denial? What you have written
His insurance will not cover since she is not on the policy
is NOT a reason to deny this claim, so there has to be something else...non-permissive use maybe?and there is only liability coverage anyways.
That's the coverage you need to pay for the other vehicle (truck)...which by the way sounds about right on the estimate, bumpers alone can run 1500 or better on those...Sam call the adjuster, and ask them to send a letter (they already should have) stating the exact reason for the claim denial...Who did your brother get the letter from demanding the payment, the truck owner or their insurance company? Either way if you want to help your brother have him call or you call the letter sender and tell them you are trying to work this out with his carrier, because you all think it was denied in error, and please give you a week or two to get it sorted out...
Let us know what the reason for the denial was (exact wording in the letter) and hopefully we can assist...also what state are you in?
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 03:36 pm Post Subject:
Hi again,
My mother was actually excluded from the policy. He did receive a denial letter from the insurance company stating that:
"As a result of the signed Driver Exclusion Agreement, coverage cannot be afforded and State National Insurance Company will be unable to make any voluntary payment or payments for any claim or claims you may present as a result of the above referenced accident".
He received the letter demanding payment from the truck owner, not the truck owner's insurance company. Also, we are in California. Is there anything else that we can do? My brother is a starting freshman in college and cannot afford to pay $3,500.00.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 04:47 pm Post Subject:
That leave your mother and brother between a rock and a hard place. I don't handle claims in CA so I can't speak for the specific laws. I can say that some states do not allow liability coverage to be denied even if a waiver is signed (it's against public policy). Again, I don't know if this is true in CA... you may want to call an attorney and see if they might be willing to give you an opinion over the phone. Your brother could also file a Dept. of Insurance complaint. The DOI in CA is _EXTREEMLY_ hard on insurance companies. I don't know is this would accomplish anything but it could not hurt.
What else can your brother do? Offer to make payments? Don't pay and wait to see if the person files suit? Not a lot of other options.
To go back to the excluded driver... if the person files suit he should sue the driver and owner (some states only allow the driver to be held responsible). The owner is your brother. Your brother is not excluded so should his policy not provide _him_ coverage? This is why many policies will pay the state minimum even if the driver was excluded from the policy. You could speak to a supervisor and ask if CA allows the owner to be held liable, and if so, ask if the insurance company is denying your _brother_ _coverage_. They may only be able to deny coverage to his mother, not to him personally.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 09:12 pm Post Subject:
some states do not allow liability coverage to be denied even if a waiver is signed
MO allows it, meaning if you're excluded you're excluded no coverage at all...I think they are going to have to pursue mom on this...and brother should tell them so, (maybe they will leave it alone then if mom has no assets)...Brother did all he could do by excluding mom from the policy, didn't allow mom to drive etc...even if he claimed theft...well, we don't insure the damages caused by a thief so that won't get them paid...I would contact the trucking company, talk with the owner, tell them that brother in no way is responsible, they can sue this poor old woman if they want...or better yet get the darn truck fixed under their collision or UMPD coverage, and see if their carrier wants to come after mom (they will give it up more than likely)...IMO you need to help get your poor brother out of the middle of this so he can concentrate on his own life and school....
Tcope gave you some good advise, I would add or only change, that rather than hire an attorney call the state Dept of Ins with that question they can answer it quicker than an attorney and for free... :wink:
I'm so very sorry about this...please do let us know if we can help you anymore in some small way, I feel so bad for your brother. :cry:
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 10:31 pm Post Subject:
But depending on the state, the brother _would_ be responsible. I don't know if it's a east/west thing but many state hold the owner as responsible as the driver (I don't know why all states don't do this). So both the driver and the owner could be named on a Complaint. If the brothers state only holds the driver liable, then I'd agree with your post, Lori.
As most states don't require UMPD to be offered, it would be more likely that the other party would have collision. So, if the don't have UMPD (probably not), collision coverage would also address their loss.
Just one more item... the brother is never going to get this considered as a "theft" the mother had access to the keys and appears easy access to the home where the keys were located. The courts don't see this a a theft as otherwise anytime the owner did not want to be held responsible they would just say the vehicle was "stolen". The police know to ask how the person got the keys and unless the mother broke into the house or something like that, they would not even take a report for theft.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:12 pm Post Subject:
Tcope, Lori: I called the CA Dept of Insurance and in this state, if the person is excluded, there will be no coverage provided and the claim could be denied by the insurance company.
I spoke to the truck owner and he was willing to settle this completely if we could just provide the $3,500.00 to fix the truck. Otherwise, he will go through his insurance company (he has collision) to get it fixed and they will pursue my brother from there. Unfortunately, $3,500.00 is not something we have laying around and since my brother/mother has no assets, we will just have to wait to see what the truck driver's insurance will do. At the least, hopefully we can set up some sort of monthly payment with the insurance company until this mess is over with. Thanks again for all of your responses.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 05:59 am Post Subject:
There is still the question as to if the owner can be held liable in CA or just the driver. If it's just the driver, your brother may want to leave your mother hanging out there... I don't know her financial status but would a judgment against her really matter much? If I recall correctly, she does not have a drivers licenses to suspension of that is not an issue. I'm not advocating leaving her with the bill (if the owner cannot be held liable) but I just want to point this out.
It sounds like you will need to have the other party file through their own carrier (companies hate to do this) but your brother may want to simply explain the situation and point out that he did not intend to allow his mother to drive, it's just that she has a mental disability and took the care without permission. Your brother is not a dead beat without insurance on the vehicle... things just got away from him.
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 09:48 am Post Subject:
But depending on the state, the brother _would_ be responsible. I don't know if it's a east/west thing but many state hold the owner as responsible as the driver (I don't know why all states don't do this).
I agree but not without permissive use...the owner of a vehicle that is stolen then crashes into six parked cars is not responsible for the action of the vehicle he owns...Just one more item... the brother is never going to get this considered as a "theft" the mother had access to the keys and appears easy access to the home where the keys were located. The courts don't see this a a theft as otherwise anytime the owner did not want to be held responsible they would just say the vehicle was "stolen". The police know to ask how the person got the keys and unless the mother broke into the house or something like that, they would not even take a report for theft.
I agree with you (kinda)..if there was comp on this vehicle...and he was presenting a comp claim...yep...but he intentionallly excluded mom...and mom knew it, now I agree it all depends on how mentally disabled mom came about getting the keys etc...In this instance, I hope that their state doesn't hold this owner liable, as it appears there was no premissive use, implied or otherwise...I agree talk to the other carrier when they come to your brother for the subro payment...in the mean while call CA dept of Ins back and explain the situation and see if the owner of the vehicle is held to the highest degree of liablilty in situations such as this...that way you will be prepared to answer the carrier if and when they come a callin'.....many times (if they believe brother that is) they will drop it....we all have compassion, even subro specialist... :wink:
Your brother is not a dead beat without insurance on the vehicle... things just got away from him.
I agree, let me ask you something we've both forgot... :oops: has mom EVER done this before? has he EVER allowed her to drive, or has she EVER taken this or any other car without permission? Also what did the cops do at the scene?
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 06:06 pm Post Subject:
There is still the question as to if the owner can be held liable in CA or just the driver.
Spoke to the CA Dept. of Insurance again today and they said that it could be BOTH. But with our situation, the carrier will most likely go for my brother. However he added, if this was theft, it would be different, but it wasn't and they have the right to go after my brother since he is the registered owner. Whether she drove it with permission or not, she still had access to the keys in the house so it would not be considered theft.
...see if the owner of the vehicle is held to the highest degree of liablilty in situations such as this
Per the dept of insurance, yes, he will be.
I agree, let me ask you something we've both forgot... has mom EVER done this before? has he EVER allowed her to drive, or has she EVER taken this or any other car without permission? Also what did the cops do at the scene?
No, no, and no. This is the very FIRST time that something like this has happened. My mother is very sick and forgets things. Also, from what my brother told me, at the scene, the cop simply took a report, ticketed my mother with driving w/o a valid license, made sure everyone was okay and got a tow truck to tow the car away. The incident occurred right at the corner of the street where they live. She was missing for less than all of five minutes when my brother realized this, he ran down the street to find her and there she was, with the police and his totaled car.
many times (if they believe brother that is) they will drop it....we all have compassion, even subro specialist...
Hopefully the specialist will have the same compassion as you. We will explain this as clearly to them and just pray that they don't pursue my brother or at least offer us some sort of payment plan that we could afford. He is starting UC Berkeley this semester and I will do all that I can to take this off his chest. Thank you so much Lori and tcope. You both have been great!
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