FIVE POINTS:
I don't do supplements, I do Final Bills and give them to my customer to pay in full.
BECAUSE.....
In my personal Opinion:
Point - 1. The consumer has an agreement with the Repairer to repair their auto as discussed between the repairer and the car owner.
Point - 2. The consumer has an agreement with the Insurer that says the insurer will pay for any covered loss, minus any deductible if applicable.
Point - 3. The Repairer is not listed anywhere in the consumers Insurance Policy and has no rights or obligations with or to the consumer's insurer.
Point - 4 The Insurer is not listed anywhere in the consumers agreement of repair with the Repairer, leaving the repairer with no rights or obligations with or to the consumer's insurer.
Point - 5 The repairer has no automatic right discussing and/or modifying that repair agreement at the request of any third party, which would include (but not limited to) representatives from, insurance co.'s, bank's, law firm's, in-law's, grandma, etc.
So... lets see.
Who is my customer? The consumer.
Who's responsibility is it to pay me? The consumer.
If the actual repair is less than the estimate I wrote, who do I charge less? The consumer
If the actual repair is more than the estimate I wrote, who do I charge more? The consumer.
Just like most other businesses on the Planet..!
I'm NOT a Claims Handler, I Fix Cars. It really simplifies things.
Its not my insurance policy, and its not the insurance companies automobile.
FK
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 06:04 am Post Subject:
My understanding is that if a policy language is contrary to this code, then it is in violaton of the code of unfair claims practices. A policy provision does not supercede a state statute or provision in the code within the statute. So the consumer then has to prove that something that is not the same is different and not just like.
You are correct. As you know, carriers have always allowed for LKQ parts. If they are in violation of state laws, why would the states not be taking action? There was a large case against several carriers a few years back in that their policy wording stated they would put the vehicle back in the same condition it was prior to the accident. Since that time, those carriers have changed the wording of their polices and state that they will pay for repairs. Those repairs would still need to meet state guidelines (the ones that you mentioned).I have no contractual duty to even discuss the claim with the insurer. If I do, am I practicing law by representing the vehicle owner?
Not even close in anyway. Discussing the repairs needed to the vehicle are done all the time. It has nothing to do with representing anyone in a legal capacity.Based on court cases, when an insurer pays for a repair in money, they have to pay an amount that is both reasonable and necessary to make the vehicle owner or policy holder whole.
Agreed, and in almost every case, if the is one shop that will not repair the vehicle for the amount the carrier is paying, there are 100 other shops that will.But you certainly have a valid point about aftermarket parts and it's been an ongoing issue for some time now. But basically the states tend to favor the insurance companies, who can afford to buy the politicians.
I believe the Capa certified aftermarket part vs OEM information you are thinking about is probably about 5 years old now (the GM/Goodwrench report I read was from 2002).
Here is a GREAT article... and it's from my backyard:
http://www.asashop.org/autoinc/jan99/collision.htm
I can also say that I've spoken to many experienced appraisers over the years and they know when to stay away from aftermarket parts. As I recall, most avoided hoods as they just don't fit most of the time. Between the appraisers and shop owners, they can pretty much agree on the use of aftermarket parts.
I'll also mention this... what would OEM parts cost if there were no LKQ parts being used? 3x or 4x as much as they do now? Probably. So the mere presents of LKQ parts serves to control the mark up placed on OEM parts. My friend recently wanted to replace just the wiper blades on his Land Rover. Well, they don't make aftermarket wipers yet. Want to know what he paid? $45 per wiper arm at the dealer. Turns out they don't sell just the blade.
You also mention that you don't need to discuss the repair cost with the insurance company. That is very true... which really makes this whole discussion moot, as you can charge whatever you want to only use whatever parts you want. But truth is, I'm betting 99% of your business comes from insurance claims. If you did not work with insurance companies, those customers would just go somewhere else. But this is the real world... where everyone involved needs to work together to get to a common place. If you don't think an LKQ part is going to work, they you need to stick up for your repair work and let the appraiser know this. After all, they don't have to work with you either... but they do. I'm betting most of the time there can be a "meeting of the minds". This is true in all lines of business, not just auto repair work.
You look at the insurance companies as being the big bad companies. How about the OEMs? They corner the market and charge outrageous prices. Should consumers be at _their_ mercy? As I mentioned before, I could also say that by allowing for LKQ parts, insurance companies are the only ones helping to keep the price of OEM parts reasonable. If OEM and shops had their way, a hood would cost $2000. Then where would we all be. There are two sides to every story.
Lastly, we see OEM striking back. They seem to be changing parts on vehicle each and every year. Just small changes. Obviously this is being done to prevent the availability of LKQ/salvage parts. But keep in mind... the more it cost to repair vehicles, the higher _your_ insurance rate is going to be. Most people want to have their cake but when it comes time to pay for it, the want to complain as well.
One more note... do I think LKQ parts should be used in every instance? Nope, nada, never. Do I think that some carriers over use them? Yup, Yes, HECK yes! Do I think they have their place and serve a purpose? You bet I do.
Link deactivated as per forum rules.
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 06:18 am Post Subject:
Give this some thought...
Lets say you take your car to a Sear's Auto Center and agree to have them repair the Brakes & Exhaust, Do an Oil Change & Tune-up, and maybe wash & wax. When you come to get your car after the works done wouldn't you expect them to hand you the final Bill and say...."'here you go pay up"?? Do you think they care how or where you got the money to pay the Bill??
Or how about that $35,000.oo Wedding? Wouldn't they hand you a Final Bill and expect to be paid??
Why do you expect a Collision Repair Shop to be any different. Like others, we provide a Professional Service and expect to paid the amount of the *FINAL BILL*....... Just like everyone else..!!
Why/How can you see this as being sooooo wrong??
I'll use this quote as I think it pretty sums up the rest of the post.
Question... when there is extensive damage to a vehicle and you can't see all the damage, how do you know what needs to be repaired? At BEST, you can only guess. Again, if you were to write up a repair bill, prior to tearing the vehicle down, you _could not_ know the full extent of the damages. How does this differ from having the oil changed on a car, getting a wash/wax or buying a ring? Are you kidding?
Show me a repair person who does not give an _estimate_ before starting work. By "estimate" I mean it's just that... not a finite charge. You do yourself and the customer no good by guessing at the amount of work without being able to fully understand what repairs are needed.
Perhaps you are so good you just know these things. But I've never once met _anyone_ who is that good. All other repair people seem to thing estimates are needed.
If I understood correctly (might be in error as I think posting names are changing), you said that you don't write supplements. If not, how do you explain this in your post:
Estimate as complete and accurate as I can.
and
So the difference between MY estimate and My final bill is usually a very, very small percentage. Making it an adjustment from an estimate to the actual cost of repairing the automobile.
So you DO right supplements?
Question... what is so wrong with a supplement if its the insurance company footing the bill? It does nothing but allow for a more accurate assessment of the repairs needed and for a more accurate price. That is just a simple fact.
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 04:44 pm Post Subject: He who holds the gold holds the power.
This is a given in our industry and you are correct tcope, you do not have to work with certain shops. The perception you give is that it is the insurer's money to do with as they wish, when in reality you are paying for the loss in money and you haven't taken control and liability for the claim.
So the insurer is merely indemnifying the policy holder and you aren't working with me. Adjusters that have been in the business for a long time, tend to use contol of the funds to direct the repair process as if it were their own funds.
I am fortunate, in that I am not dependent on referrals from insurers, my customer is the vehicle owner. When and if i lose a job due to heavy steering and the insurer does not want to pay based on my estimate, I employ this methodology based on Missouri statutes.
If an insurer prepares and estimate and it is not a sufficient amount that I feel will repair the vehicle to pre-loss condition, I tell the owner, "Sorry, I can't make a profit on that job for their price and willl not repair with parts that are not what, I as an expert, consider to be LKQ parts. They either pay the difference, invoke their appraisal or sue for the difference. I recommend that the owner ask the insurer to name one shop that will make the repairs based on their estimate. They usually will, and the owner sends a letter to that shop telling them that they can not charge one penny more than the estimate of the insurer because they refused to pay their chosen shop, and that they will have the work inspected after the repair, by their preferred shop. The named repairer will then be responsible for any remaining flaws and defects and to bring the vehicle back to pre-loss condition or the cost of any re-repairs due to their failure to perform repairs that they were not authorized by the insurer to proceed with. Guess what,,,all of a sudden the insurers named shop can't repair that vehicle for the price of the insurer or does not want to get involved.
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 06:26 pm Post Subject:
tcope,
Your kidding....... Right.
I'll use this quote as I think it pretty sums up the rest of the post.
Question... when there is extensive damage to a vehicle and you can't see all the damage, how do you know what needs to be repaired? At BEST, you can only guess. Again, if you were to write up a repair bill, prior to tearing the vehicle down, you _could not_ know the full extent of the damages. How does this differ from having the oil changed on a car, getting a wash/wax or buying a ring? Are you kidding?
Show me a repair person who does not give an _estimate_ before starting work. By "estimate" I mean it's just that... not a finite charge. You do yourself and the customer no good by guessing at the amount of work without being able to fully understand what repairs are needed.
Perhaps you are so good you just know these things. But I've never once met _anyone_ who is that good. All other repair people seem to thing estimates are needed.
If I understood correctly (might be in error as I think posting names are changing), you said that you don't write supplements. If not, how do you explain this in your post:
Quote:
Estimate as complete and accurate as I can.
and
Quote:
So the difference between MY estimate and My final bill is usually a very, very small percentage. Making it an adjustment from an estimate to the actual cost of repairing the automobile.
So you DO right supplements?
Question... what is so wrong with a supplement if its the insurance company footing the bill? It does nothing but allow for a more accurate assessment of the repairs needed and for a more accurate price. That is just a simple fact.
tcope,
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I write up a repair Bill before *all* the Repairs are *Completed*??-!!
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I do NOT write an estimate?? And then.... just below you Quote my comment about writing as complete and accurate an estimate as I can??
And,
No matter how hard you try........ you can not spin a "Final Bill Written after all Repairs have been completed" into being a Supplement.
Give it a rest....... Please!!
About your ending question, I disagree, How could a supplement be more accurate than the above mentioned final Bill? Plus illuminating the "Supplement" will save your insured's money by reducing repetitive processing expenses. Like 'paper', 'Checks', 'Postage', etc.
FK,
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 07:11 pm Post Subject: Questions directed to the Missouri Department of Insurance
I submitted several questions to the department of insurance and got a pretty gobblety gook reply back from them and posted it on different message board.
An enlightened attorney that has written a concise autobody repair law dicitinary that covers all fifty states responded with the following replies.
There is a basis for the terminology of supplement depending upon whether the state involved has any anti steering language or statutes and whos's estimate of repairs prevails in a given state.
Response: The following answers are based upon my knowledge, and information contained in the text AUTO BODY REPAIR LAW IN THE UNITED STATES-ENCYCLOPEDIA OF LAWS (2007)
para 5 page 1: Your reference to 20 csr 100-1.050.(2)(E), should be instead to 20 MO ADC 100-1.050(2)(F). [SEE TABLE OF STATUTES Encyclopedia p 509. This Administrative Code Section provides that when the insurance company elects to repair and prepares an estimate of the cost of automobile repairs the estimate shall be in an amount for which it may reasonably be expected damages can be satisfactorily repaired. If the insurer designates a specific repair shop, the company must cause the automobile to be restored to its condition prior to the loss.
Paragraph 2 page 2. An estimate written by the adjuster must be written to the standard set forth in the Missouri regulation, above. If the scope of the estimate ends up to be less than an amount needed to satisfactorily repair the loss a supplement for newly discovered unknown damage is prepared. The method of approval by the insurer is discussed in ENCYCLOPEDIA Section S9 [supplemental repair]. If a teardown is required, an estimate containing the cost of the disassembly is given to the client. ENCYCLOPEDIA Section T1 [teardown] These documents are prepared, as you know, prior to the final invoice. Paragraph 3 page 2. The insurer fails to properly pay for repairs if the settlement amount is less than what is needed to return the car to its preexisting condition prior to the accident. ENCYCLOPEDIA Section P4 [pre-existing condition]. Assuming the licensed professional is accurate in its estimate and the insurer is not accurate, enforcement is by the insured. This can be by appraisal, or suit depending upon the terms of the policy. ENCYCLOPEDIA Section A5 Appraisal and Physical Damage Appraisers. Para 5 page 2. If the estimate agreed to by the customer contains the disassembly charges along with the repair charges, the customer who decides not to have the repairs performed, owes the shop the cost of repairs up to that time. Some states such as North Carolina have specific enactments on this subject. ENCYCLOPEDIA Section S9 [Supplemental claim p 439-440. The North Carolina enactment comports with common sense and law. The customer 'authorized' the work up to termination which included the disassembly expense.
Paragraph 5 page 2 of your letter. The repair shop is required in most states [not Missouri] to 'prepare an estimate'. See ENCYCLOPEDIA Section E3:9 p197-200 [states requiring estimates listed]. The license or certificate issued to the repair shop does not require that the shop owner have expertise in the market value of vehicles. The insurer decides whether a constructive total exists. ENCYCLOPEDIA Section C10 [Constructive total]. This is part of the insurer's option under the terms of the auto policy's collision coverage.
Paragraph 6 p2 of your letter. The legal remedy for the insured is appraisal. This remedy is usually inadequate as the expense is usually greater than the disputed amount. As discussed in the introduction to the ENCYCLOPEDIA page vii: "Unless the auto body repair industry changes its economic and political relationship with the insurance industry it will, as a whole, remain dominated by the insurers."
Paragraph 8 page 2. In some states, Insurers are required to report results to the regulatory agency which results must include names and addresses of the repair shops, the total number of shops surveyed. ENCYCLOPEDIA Section S10 [survey]. Most states do not have such requirements. The insurer would not have to produce the survey relied upon.
In a state containing an 'anti-steering' statute, the higher estimate of the independent shop would prevail as long as the charges are reasonable. This is based upon the reasoning that if the DRP estimate prevailed over a higher reasonable amount this would be a form of steering, outlawed by the statute or regulation of the particular state. ENCYCLOPEDIA Section S5 [Steering] In a non-anti-steering state such as Missouri the DRP estimate or the insurer's estimate will prevail. Gaston v Founders (2006 Ct.App. Illinois) 847 N.E.2d 523 discussed in ENCYCLOPEDIA Section D6 [Direct Repair Programs p169-170.
Paragraph 9 page 2. If the 'cost of repair' is less than is needed to return the car to the pre-loss condition, or not based upon an accepted based methodology or market survey that determines a fair and reasonable market price for similar services, the insurer cannot pay such low amount. If the insurer can accomplish the proper repair by paying one price to shop one and another to shop two there is no violation. The insurer owes no contractual duty to the repair shop. Its only duty is to the insured. see ENCYCLOPEDIA Chapter 1 [Who is the Customer of the Auto Body Repair shop]
In my opinion your response from the DOI would be as set forth above.
I apologize for any misspellings.
Your questions were quite insightful.
For more information about the text AUTO BODY REPAIR LAW IN THE UNITED STATES - ENCYCLOPEDIA OF LAWS, see Brucecornblum.com
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 07:44 pm Post Subject:
Earlier in this thread Mike said something about negotiating being "unlicensed practice of law" and tcope (I think) said it happens all the time.
I am at a loss here ... what's being "negotiated" ?
Parts ? Rates ? Methodology ? Prices ?
Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:06 pm Post Subject:
goodnatured Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:06 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would hope that in any case my insurance company would step in and help me if they thought the bill was excessive. First off if I did not or the insurance company did not agree with the estimate from the beginning doesn't a second oppinion on costs or take it to another garage come into play here so that both the insurance company and the consumer is protected? I would only expect to pay my deductable after repairs. I would hope that my insurance company would be knowledge about what a fair cost is in repair, surley they have a formula on how to figure these things out, where the everyday consumer would not.
This is the way that I am interpreting this thread, hope it makes sense on the way that I understood the thread.
goodnatured,
Re-read Point 1.
Point - 1. The *consumer* has an agreement with the Repairer to repair their auto as discussed between the repairer and the car owner.
If you did not agree with our estimate of repairs would you be having your auto repaired at my shop?? Of course not..!
But, you would still have a reference estimate to compare with the insurer's opinion of what it may cost to have your auto repaired.
:)
FK,
Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2008 07:02 pm Post Subject:
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I write up a repair Bill before *all* the Repairs are *Completed*??-!!
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I do NOT write an estimate?? And then.... just below you Quote my comment about writing as complete and accurate an estimate as I can??
Does this make sense??
This entire thread makes less and less sense to me as I can't tell one "guest" post from another!
The initial post was made by "Guest" taken from who know where and then there are replies by "Guest".
Plus everyone's avatar changing in each post is not helping the issue.
Anyway... I did state the following:
If I understood correctly (might be in error as I think posting names are changing), you said that you don't write supplements. If not, how do you explain this in your post:
(who wrote what was _quote_ in the opening post?)
My request.... if your going to post more then one time on ampminsure, please register (it's free and painless) and choose an avatar. Thanks for your consideration.
Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 07:07 pm Post Subject:
[quote] tcope
Senior member
Posted: 19 Feb 2008 19:02 Post subject:
:
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I write up a repair Bill before *all* the Repairs are *Completed*??-!!
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I do NOT write an estimate?? And then.... just below you Quote my comment about writing as complete and accurate an estimate as I can??
Does this make sense??
This entire thread makes less and less sense to me as I can't tell one "guest" post from another!
The initial post was made by "Guest" taken from who know where and then there are replies by "Guest".
Plus everyone's avatar changing in each post is not helping the issue.
Anyway... I did state the following:
Quote:
If I understood correctly (might be in error as I think posting names are changing), you said that you don't write supplements. If not, how do you explain this in your post:
(who wrote what was _quote_ in the opening post?)
My request.... if your going to post more then one time on ampminsure, please register (it's free and painless) and choose an avatar. Thanks for your consideration.
tcope
I agree that this chronological Posting format can be confusing. Especially with the more complicated Topics which get broken into somewhat more detail orientated Sub-Threads.
About the Guests: From the start I've signed all of my posts with FK, at the end. I also registered for the very first Post I made. Then an error (who's I don't know - likely mine) would not allow me to Sign-in, forcing me to remain a Guest for several days. A short while ago "Lakemen" resolved the problem and I've been able to Post as FK, ever since. So when looking at older posts check for FK, at the end, if its not there, its not my post.
I understand your thoughts on the confusion, It seems to requires more time to sort through the list of posts attempting to figure out who is saying what to whom, than it takes to type a response. ??!! But that is the Sites format and I have no control of it.
About the AVATARs: from what I can see with my limited time at this Site. They appear to change at random every time I re-read a string of responses. (the responses stay the same, just the Avatars change) Yet for some that post here the Avatars stay the same.??
Maybe we could get the Site manager or someone else with knowledge to explain the system to us?
Is there anyone that can Help??
FK,
Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:51 am Post Subject:
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I write up a repair Bill before *all* the Repairs are *Completed*??-!!
Where oh where in any of My Posts does it say I do NOT write an estimate?? And then.... just below you Quote my comment about writing as complete and accurate an estimate as I can??
And,
No matter how hard you try........ you can not spin a "Final Bill Written after all Repairs have been completed" into being a Supplement.
If I understand your posts correctly, you write up an estimate prior to working on the vehicle. The estimate is very close to what the repairs will end up costing as you are very good as what you do and take the time to go over all the damages. Also, you acknowledge that your final bill may be different from the estimate, albeit, only slightly.
Then you don't agree with the 5 Points post that you quoted? It states the following:
I don't do supplements, I do Final Bills and give them to my customer to pay in full.
Or perhaps this whole thread is a difference in opinion on what a 'supplement' is. A supplement would mean something had been written prior. As a supplement also changes the amount, obviously an "estimate" had been written. I guess you could call it a 'final bill' or a 'supplement' but it's really the same thing. Insurance companies call it a supplement as it's an addition to what _could be_ a perfectly good (final) bill and that it's actually an _addition_ to the initial amount given. Insurance companies _don't_ write 'estimates'... shops write these. As the insurance company is not making the repairs. Their document is a listing of what repairs they are _paying for_. This about that... it actually makes sense. So I guess if we all agree with that, then shops don't write "supplements"... but loosing the terminology, it's all the same thing.
To sum up many posts I fail to see why anyone is up in arms about the relationship between the insurance companies and body shops. As far as I'm concerned, we both work together toward a common goal... getting a vehicle repaired. At the end of the day we don't have to agree on how that should be done and at what cost... it's all good. But we do need to work together as professionals. If one side insists on ignoring the other, it's not going to change anything... it's only going to make work more difficult.
Repair shops can work however they want and charge what ever they want. No one is making them do any differently. But on the other hand, most shops (body shops) live and die on insurance work. Meaning, you can act as mentioned above, it's your right... but at the end of the day if you don't want to work with the carrier, you will probably loose a loose a lot of business. You can read that as if the carriers are playing god, but that is not what I'm saying and it's _not_ the case. The carriers I know of are always willing to talk over repairs with the shops. The carriers will try to come to a meeting of the minds. Sometimes the carrier won't give an allowance for what is being asked. Sometime they will. The same should be expected of the repair shop. For those that think they don't need to work with other business, more power to you. I hope and trust that you will do well for yourself.
It might be appropriate to mention where I'm coming from... the carrier I work for does not use AM parts... mainly OEM and reconditioned OEM. Sometimes I will write salvage parts but not often (I'm under no pressure and I just don't feel like clicking that button most of the time). Most body shops in my area charge $40-$42/hour. I pay $42/hour. Some charge $44. I pay $42/hour... it does not matter if the shop charges $40... I'm out to pay an average rate... not pick and choose to save a buck. I mostly re-write shops estimates... meaning I simply use the repairs they write down. Sometimes my appraisals are more, sometimes they are less. Does it make sense that I pay more then the shops estimate? Yup... as mentioned, I don't pick and choose what to go by just to save a buck.
Also... I SUCK at writing apprasials. :)
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