Accident with UPS truck

by Guest » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:30 pm
Guest

I was also in a car accident head on with a ups international truck. The vehicle had to be towed because it shut off no power what so ever. The insurance appraiser did an estimate on just the body damage stated the hood would not open on inspection and also he stated the vehicle was drivable which it was not. His estimate was for a used front clip and the rest was for paint and labor and the amount was for 8632.53 before my 500.00 ded. Now I drive a 2004 Chrysler Pacifica and i also have gap insurance and don't feel safe that they found everything wrong with it and I am really not sure what the ACV is for my vehicle. Is there anything I can do to get the insurance company to total it. Thanks...

Total Comments: 56

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:05 pm Post Subject: Thank you Lori, and August for the welcome.

I only hope to contribute from the perspective of a business owner who's livelihood is affected by the decisions made by insurers. By exerting one's independence from another industry that has a stranglehold on it's ability to make a reasonable profit, I run counter to many insurers beliefs.

While I believe that some insurers, adjusters, appraisers, independent contracted appraisers are inherently opposed to my industry making a profit at running our businesses on our terms, I believe most on the insurer side have the policy holders welfare in mind. You are only doing what you were taught was right and that we have to negotiate for your business and negotiate on behalf of consumer without benefit of being attorneys or public adjusters.

You guys operate in a cut throat world of your own, with other insurers attempting to gain market share by swaying non insured customers to insure with you. In order for insurers to remain competitive against each other and remain solvent with happy stockholders and claims managers, you obviously have to control costs of repairs. The problem is that the insurance industry as a whole, understands that the collision repair industry is leaderless and not united and has it's own problems. Therefore the collision industry has allowed itself to become manipulated to support insurers by direct repair businesses giving deep concessions and discounts back to insurers in exchange for referral business. Hence, the division of shopowners that angrily fight for what they feel they are owed and fight against their customers being manipulated into using any drp shops.

Many in my industry look at this as extortion; No different than what Al Capone and his entourage of misfits exerted on business owners. The insurance industry can not control oem manufactures and those costs with exception of mandated use, of what we believe to be, inferior parts to indemnify their policyholders. Insurers can not control each other so the collision industry is the easy target. Why should another entire industry give up profits so that another industry can make billions.

Quite frankly shops are charging 40 to 50 percent less for their work than comparable skills in the mechanical side of the equation. Manipulated data base times are used to control costs. Data base providers market their products to insurers on who best can show that by using their estimating platforms that they can save insurers money. (at again the shops expense) If you have three major database providers all coming up with lower and lower times allowed to perform procedures and they do not match each other, it is obvious to anyone looking that data base times, they appear to be are altered to favor insurers. After all, if data base groups all did the same time studies, they would all come to the same conclusion as to how much time is a reasonable time for a procedure and then how would they market themselves. Add that to the fact that these times are calculated based on the replacement of new undamaged parts. You really have to ask yourself, when was the last time repairers changed parts on vehicles that were not damaged.

This is why you may see some shop owners express themselves as they do when they come here. I can't speak on behalf of anyone but myself, but I feel I can engage in civilized debate or dialogue. You may have to accept ideas different than your own perceptions. The collision industry does not owe the insurance industry cost control measures designed to alleviate profit in our own field at our expense. We have heard you only have to work a little faster, a little smarter, and in larger volume and you can be profitable. Many shops bought into that hook line and sinker, and they are foundering now, because their supposed partners bailed on them after they invested heavily to the needs of insurers only to be told we no longer need many of you.

So this is why you may see some angry people challenge your beliefs and why you may encounter a departure in the way many shop owners conduct business in the future with an industry that promised to be partners to another.

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:40 pm Post Subject:

No manufacturer recommends this procedure or will condone it.

Yet here is a paragraph from the article at autoparts.com that you linked:

"Liability concerns keep growing. As a repairer, sectioning is your choice. Making such a repair based only on experience and not on the manufacturer's sectioning repair procedures may result in sectioned joints either weaker or stronger than designed. How do you make a decision on when to section?" So it would seem from that statement that manufactures _do_ have a procedure in place for replacing a clip. It goes on:

"When estimating a damaged vehicle, keep in mind that sectioning can be an effective and economical repair. It also can create problems. If you have damage that could qualify for a sectioning procedure, make a few quick checks. " It does also state the following:
"Information providers develop their suggested sectioning labor times based on procedures from one or more authoritative sources, including the vehicle manufacturer, independent research reports and I-CAR's general sectioning procedures. "Based on" indicates some documentation behind their recommended labor time, not an endorsement of the procedure nor specific lists of steps to be done. That is still your responsibility." So the site points out that there are guidelines from the manufactures and I-CAR but that these companies do not endorse replacing a clip. This is a _far_ cry from not recommending or agree with the process. Of course, would a manafature agree with the use of any used parts? Lastly the site sums it all up:
"Sectioning can be a valid repair choice, but not always."

As far as vehicleinfo.com, they only state that WreckCheck does not agree with repalcing a clip. Now THERE is a company I've heard of. I once had the pleasure of reading a diminishment value report from them. At best it was laughable. They have a lengthy statement about how they arrived at the diminished value they came up with. I'll summarize... pulled it out of a hat.

I also read your last post and the link. So it appears that their are repair guidelines for replacing clips. Question... if done correctly and in the right situations, are repalcement of clips acceptable? Obviously the answer is yes!

Don't believe any person or insurer that states that this type of repair is industry acceptible or insurer approved.

Almost all of the link you provided don't seem to agree with your statement above. So should those site not be believed?

I would say that it's not the replacement of the clip that is inheretnly bad, it's what work is involved in adding it to the vehicle. In many cases I've read that it's bolted on. But in other cases it appears that it's welded. I'm betting everyone would agree that excessive or incorrect welds could lead to problems.

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 01:36 am Post Subject: Please pay close attention tscope.

Sectioning isn't always clipping, but clipping is a form of sectioning.

When a repair procedure describes sectioning , they are talking about taking a donor part, new or used and welding it according to manufacturers specifications at a prescribed location on a structural part such as a hinge pillar or lower frame rail

Clipping is sectioning half of one car and part of another. So while sectioning may be an endorsed procedure, clipping a car is not. They are saying to the repairer do so at your own risk based on your skills and information you may obtain from a source absent of information supplied by the manufacturer of the vehicle. Govern yourselves accordingly!

Do you really think any manufacturer is going to endorse clipping and say hey, chop our cars in half and put them back together, we'll guarantee they want come apart in a heavy wreck or if the air bags will even function as designed, because now, Mr. Repairer, you have re-engineered our vehicle.

Speaking in my own opinion and maybe not the opinion of many associations, who or what is I car? I car is an entity built by insurers for the express purpose of insurers with sponsors, along with vendors associated in the industry created to endorse Insurance desired repairs. In my strong opinion, this is an insurance driven entity designed to allow the insurance industry and collision industry to interact, (more of that partnership stuff) and generate revenue so that shops can acquire certificates to hang on a wall that insurers feel are required to impress their policyholders and meet drp requirements. They offer classes on a level that the non professional can comprehend and at an exorbitant fee. This way some insurance adjusters (not pointing fingers at anyone here) can boast to vehicle owners that they are I car certified to determine the extent of your damage or that they have attended classes on airbags, so I am qualified to tell the shop how to repair your vehicle. Great, grab a wrench and do the job after a one hour course.

That's not to say that you can not learn something from an I car class. It's a good starting point for the untrained, but one should get a shop manual or technical manual and read or go to a continuing education class at a technical school if you really want to be qualified to speak on repairs with any authority and experience. I once billed on an invoice materials for weld thru coating and the adjuster called the vehicle owner to tell them he was I car Master qualified and that he wasn't paying for welding rods as all cars are mig welded now. Weld thru coating is a product sprayed or applied between welded panels to ensure corrosion protection not a rod to weld with for anyone who does not know the difference. :roll:

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 02:08 am Post Subject:

Sectioning isn't always clipping, but clipping is a form of sectioning.

All of the information was used from the links you provided. If they did not pertain to replacing clips then it was not really what was asked for.

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