Accident with UPS truck

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 07:45 pm Post Subject: Concessions and more rambling thoughts.

Lori,

You and others here, myself and my industry may have different opinions on what a concession is.

For example not charging for towing , storage, administrative charges, all the r&i's for disassembly for purpose of inspection and building a repair plan, hazardous fees for removal of parts, pre-pulls for accessing damage, tow assistance fees for taking time from other work to assist towing companies unload immobile vehicles, and I could go on, are all examples of things I charge for and get paid for that many insurers consider work to be performed for no charge when a vehicle totals or requires certain procedures to gain access.

Direct repairs shops may absorb all these fees which prompts insurers to tell collision owners that are not affiliated or drp shops , we do not pay for that, or no one else charges for that, the state says you can not bill for that. Many drp shops can not bill for additional materials or deviate from the refinish hours time a set fee for materials even though it has no valid basis.

Shops may be required to work on certain insured's vehicles and set aside your non prefered customer where they suffer additional rental expenses or inconveniences. Not being able to adjust for the cost of doing business labor rates until state farm takes a survey that everyone else conveniently uses, as well as not raising rates because your partners simply says no are also concessions.

These and more, are all forms of concessions that are examples of ways insurers withhold payment for actual services performed. I am sorry that the shop down the street has to pay Progressive (or any insurer for that matter) for rental expenses incurred because the job was delayed for any reason. Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault. Many shops for fear of being bullied, comply instead fo telling Progressive attorneys to go pound salt. Imagine being sued by someone you have no contract with and have not caused any monetary damage to by any negligence on the shop's part.

This is the reason, I inform all my customers to conduct their communication in writing or email with their adjuster so that they can contact their agent to check their policy to see why they are paying more than their deductible. Written communication is complying with a policy, and keeping the honest people honest.

You know, yesterday I couldn't get into this website, and I actually thought that my ip address had been blocked. And I thought, this is certainly an easy way to silence opinion. I am glad that this turned out not to be so. I appreciate your site's openiness to constructive dialogue giving the collision side an opportunity to share it's opinions and experiences with claims handling and collision repairs.

I ususally state a disclaimer when I give advice on any forum that I am not an attorney nor am I licensed to consult as there is no license required. I do emphasis that most is my opinion based on my experiences and studies of thirty years and that one should never act on my advice without first consulting an attorney or dispute a claim without first reading a policy.

I believe the insurance claims handling aspect and the collision repair industry should have a system of checks and balances. We do have the unfair claims practices act but that has no real teeth for punitive damages for an offending party. Too bad there isn't an ombudsman type of department in every state made up of industry leaders from both the insurers and collision owners. Then there might be a form of resolution beneficial to the consumer as a means of not having to hire an attorney. As I stated before, most departments of insurance have allowed some insurers to remove the appraisal clause. It was probably demonstrated that most policy holders never used it and weren't made aware that it was a form of resolution. Too bad the only way to solve these issues are by attorneys and arbitration at the ultimate expense to consumers.

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:19 am Post Subject:

You and others here, myself and my industry may have different opinions on what a concession is.

administrative charges

tow assistance fees

Many drp shops can not bill for additional materials or deviate from the refinish hours time a set fee for materials even though it has no valid basis.

Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault

We do have the unfair claims practices act but that has no real teeth for punitive damages for an offending party.

As I stated before, most departments of insurance have allowed some insurers to remove the appraisal clause.

Too bad there isn't an ombudsman type of department in every state made up of industry leaders from both the insurers and collision owners

Then there might be a form of resolution beneficial to the consumer as a means of not having to hire an attorney.

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 04:24 pm Post Subject: on the subject of Progressive insurance

Here is one link at the extent Progressive exerts it's legal prowess

http://www.individual.com/story.php?story=77622345

Here is a commentary on Progressive's rental car practice....still looking for the actual article on the lawsuit

http://www.bodyshopsolutions.com/WordPress/?p=114

You may not have paid anyone for administrative charges, but I'll bet your company has paid more than likely paid me if you are one of the top five insurers in Missouri. My lline item for administrative charges are for taking time for preparing an estimate, being on the phone, use of my funds to pay for pre-existing storage and tow fees. I am sure that they were not called administrative fees in the insurer's paper work and there is a line item that it is lumped under, but none the less they are my administrative fees.


Not sure what you mean by disclaimer on the site and the reference to paint and materials, can you point that out to me?

Link deactivated as per forum rules

Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 05:02 pm Post Subject: Two more sources for not recommending vehicle clipping

GM Clipping Statement
GM Does Not Approve of Clipping to Repair Collision Damage
DETROIT – General Motors does not approve the use of clipping to repair collision damage to vehicles. In the collision repair industry, clipping refers to cutting two damaged vehicles through the windshield pillars, the rocker panels, and across the floor pan and joining the undamaged portions from these vehicles to make the repair. The use of clipping voids GM's New Vehicle Limited Warranty (and any variety of the GM Protection Plan), as well as GM's new vehicle service part and corrosion warranties for each part in the clip.

GM does not sanction clipping repair because it cuts across the major load-bearing paths of a vehicle and can reduce the structural integrity of the repaired vehicle. This is critical because of the increase in the use of Advance High Strength Steel (AHSS). Improper repairs can lead to vehicle performance issues related to noise, vibration and handling problems.

GM recommends replacing body components at factory seams. When applicable, GM will either provide a specific service part for collision repair frames, or repair information on how to create specific parts from a complete service assembly. Frame repair procedures for select GM vehicles are available at http://www.gmgoodwrench.com/gmgoodqwrenchjsp/gmspo/repair.jsp. These parts and procedures provide a practical and cost effective alternative to clipping.

GM provides vehicle specific collision repair procedures which are developed to be in a location and fashion that – particularly when used with genuine GM parts – will yield panel strength comparable to the original panel strength.

Replacing damaged parts of a vehicle designed to crush in a collision may reduce occupant protection in a future collision. GM has not tested or validated a “clipped vehicle” repair, therefore, GM cannot endorse this type of repair or confirm the crash performance during a subsequent collision.

GM recommends the use of genuine GM parts in repairs to help restore the vehicle to its pre-crash condition.

Mark,
I-CAR offers one program that covers full-body clipping (SPS02). Jeff Poole's statement
accurately reflects the I-CAR position on this issue. I-CAR does not recommend clipping,
nor do we recommend against it. In the event that the decision is made by the collision
repair professional to employ clipping as the mode of repair, SPS 02 will help to point out
how to perform the repair and what should be considered when making the decision and
performing the repair.
I-CAR does not establish standards for collision repair. I-CAR is a training organization
that does not certify technicians, facilities or repairs. When performing any repair, I-CAR
defers to the OEM policies and procedures from that repair.
I hope this helps.
All the best in the New Year,
Rick

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2008 01:17 pm Post Subject:

Nada or KBB are both great places to look. From my experience, depending on mileage your Pacifica may indeed get fixed. I would ask for another adjuster to come look at it and say he didnt get the full damage listed; or atleast call them and tell them it will not even run after the accident. You have no way of knowing wherein lies the problem since the hood is inoperable.

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 02:48 pm Post Subject:

First, hello everyone again..excuse my absence but I fell
'victim' to the dreaded influenza 'h' and have been in the hospital/then bed all week. yesterday was the first day up...so gonna make this short and hopefully back to myself by saturday or so..

mike

Not sure what you mean by disclaimer on the site and the reference to paint and materials, can you point that out to me?

I ususally state a disclaimer when I give advice on any forum that I am not an attorney nor am I licensed to consult as there is no license required

Many drp shops can not bill for additional materials or deviate from the refinish hours time a set fee for materials even though it has no valid basis.

....Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault

Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 03:40 pm Post Subject:

Mike, I just got time to get back to checking your links here...this is funny

Here is one link at the extent Progressive exerts it's legal prowess
http://www.individual.com/story.php?story=77622345

Progressive sued Lowe in federal court in August of 2007, charging "trademark infringement, unfair competition, deceptive trade practices and trademark dilution."

At the core of the case is the insurance company's allegation that Lowe is illegally using the "Progressive" logo to lure customers to his business and away from its "network" contractors.

that the extent Progressive exerts it's legal prowess

Here is a commentary on Progressive's rental car practice....still looking for the actual article on the lawsuit
http://www.bodyshopsolutions.com/WordPress/?p=114

Progressive actually has a legal department that sues shops for rental expenses they interpret to be the shop's fault.

My advice has more “teeth,” and, frankly, will be more enjoyable. When someone calls trying to collect rental money it's very simple. Tell the person on the other end of the phone to “Go F*** yourself.” and hang up.

Yes, it may be crude and impolitic, but I believe it will have more of an effect than trying to be professional and diplomatic. Despite what many people think, this type of language or response can be very effective.

So here's what you do when Progressive's pit bulls start nipping at your heals. Train your receptionists and anyone else who will be in a position to take a call from Progressive's collectors. I know some of you are timid. Some of you are good Christians and would never use the foul language that I am suggesting you use. If you or your employees are reluctant to use such language to talk to the scum of the insurance industry, start watching a lot of “R” rated movies and listening to Rap music. You will become desensitized to bad language. Keep telling yourselves that sometimes you have to get dirty when cleaning the sewer. The Good Lord will forgive your bad language because it will be for a good cause.

After telling Progressive's bullies to go “F*** Yourself,” hang up and then dial *67 to return the call. Many collection agencies block their caller ID so this may not work. But if, as Erica Eversman has suggested, the call comes from Progressive's attorneys, they will probably answer the phone. If they do, ask to speak to the person who is handling Progressive's rental bill collections. When they pick up the phone, introduce yourself. Tell them your name and the name of your shop. Then tell them that you just wanted to make certain they heard you before you hung up the phone, and in case they didn't “Go F*** Yourself.”

I also encourage you to cause Progressive to harass you.

We all need to quit trying to be the nice guy and just tell these untrained halfwits just what it's going to cost. If they can't handle it, then they can just go F*** themselves.

I've taken a part time job working at an independent body shop close to my home writing estimates and supplements and harassing insurance companies

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:15 am Post Subject: If anyone is working for the company in question.....

My sympathy for you. They have even less loyalty or compassion to their employees as they have to their policyholders and even less for third party claimants. If you really want to know what low level appraisers have to say about the companies they work for, check out double u double u double u . jobvent.com. Plug in the company you work for.

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 01:33 am Post Subject:

I would say that it's not the replacement of the clip that is inheretnly bad, it's what work is involved in adding it to the vehicle. In many cases I've read that it's bolted on. But in other cases it appears that it's welded. I'm betting everyone would agree that excessive or incorrect welds could lead to problems.

Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:27 pm Post Subject:

My sympathy for you. They have even less loyalty or compassion to their employees as they have to their policyholders and even less for third party claimants. If you really want to know what low level appraisers have to say about the companies they work for, check out double u double u double u . jobvent.com. Plug in the company you work for.