Accident with UPS truck

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 02:39 am Post Subject:

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 02:40 am Post Subject:

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 02:41 am Post Subject:

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 02:42 am Post Subject:

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 02:58 am Post Subject: People should make informed choices.

People should be allowed to make informed choices in their repair situations. Your personal experiences with clips shouldn't be the sole arbiter of whether this is a sanctioned procedure or determinatin of whether it should be performed at all.

Don't take this personal, I believe you are entitled to your opinion, but you shouldn't be making potential life altering decisions based on procedures you have not performed or had the training to perform.

So, go ahead and make the proverbial leap, if your confident in your opinion and expertise regarding clipping. You make the call, step up to the plate, to the precipice of the edge, you accept the liability, you are the expert, and you tell everyone here and in your profession that you believe that clipping is an acceptible, safe, and quality repair.

I can't make that call, I'll kick your job to the curb, not because it's above my skill level or you wouldn't pay the value of the service for completing a procedure for this complicated of a repair. I'll kick it to the curb because I wouldn't want to be responsible for putting someone's wife, husband, daughter, mother, regional claims supervisor or whomever behind the wheel, and I wouldn't want to even be on the same road knowingly that a Frankencar was operating on for the fear or safety of my family riding in my car. When you force them to accept this type of repair and you find a drp shop that is afraid of upsetting their insurance partner by not doing this job, I give that vehicle owner a free post repair inspection to show them that they weren't made whole and give them the name of a consumer bad faith attorney.

But then that's just my opinion.

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 03:19 am Post Subject:

I never said clipping was always an acceptable option. But I still see no indication of the following:

No manufacturer recommends this procedure or will condone it.

Courts do not consider insurers experts at auto repairs.

you should consult collision repair shops in your area to find one who vehemently opposes this type of repair to assist you.

Today's unibody construction requires specific repair procedures recommended by your vehicle's manufacturer. Don't believe any person or insurer that states that this type of repair is industry acceptible or insurer approved.

The only reason any insurer would clip a car, would be because they found it cost effective regardless of your future safety.

Only original parts from your manufacturer should be used to make a structural repair to your vehicle according to their recommendations for installation.

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 04:24 am Post Subject: Is this a deposition or a dialogue?

I don't have the time or inclination to chase additional corroborating evidence that this is not an acceptible repair. My purpose isn't to debates the merits of clipping with you but to warn vehicle owners on how to channel the liability back to the insurer and get what an actual cash value policy promises. The point is two halves don't make a vehicle whole or the owner.

There is a toyota study, that I can't find at the moment, that did tests on the use of salvaged parts to clip and section. It was determined that the size of the holes required to separate the donor car's parts would create a situation that would lead to future failure of the part to act as the engineer designed it to function in the event of a crash, because of the heat generated by welding the components back together again.

Frame rails are designed with crush zones intimate to the timing mechanisms of the air bag deployment to ensure occupant safety. This factor alone should be enough to disqualify sectioning as a safe and acceptible procedures.

The limited funds that insurers estimate to peform clipping procedures could contribute to the negligence and shortcuts that techicians take when clipping some vehicles to comply with insurer mandated cycle times or techs, supervisors, forement that are just plain lazy and take shortcuts to repairs. Look at the corrosion from the welding procedures on some of the vehicles that were repaired and later totaled when poor repairs were discovered during a post repair inspection by a diminished value inspector.

http://www.csiofnc.com/poor_unsafe_repairs.aspx Note, some of these vehicle may be total losses reconstructed by rebuilders. However the techniques they use are the same methods too many licensed shops practice.

A picture speaks a thousand words they say. Go ahead take that step and tell people that these repairs are safe. The sad fact is that these types of repairs and the quality seems to be industry standard and performed at direct repair shops as well as non drp shops.

Oh and by the way, there is actually a higher profit margin on imitation parts. They carry as much as a 35 to 40 percent discount.

400 dollar oem fender with a 25% discount costs the shop 300.00
325 dollar a/m fender for same car with a 35% discount costs shop 211.00
The shop would make 14 dollars more profit using the a/m fender. That is unless you count the time prepping and making it fit. Then you lose that profit.

Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:02 pm Post Subject:

I can't wait to get back and fully read this entire thread...not enough time this morning...just want to throw a couple of things in here real quick....first I agree in part re:icar....first can't tell you what torture those classes are :roll: :lol:



Secondly, personally I skimmed right over the op's 'clip' comment because (maybe unfortunately and wrongfully) I didn't think he knew the correct terminolgy and was using slang he didn't understand....and figured in truth the adjuster has sourced a used (bolt on) front end...which if we could see the estimate I'd bet is the case, not a 'true' clip....there is a huge difference between buying and replacing a used front end (again bolt on) and a true clip...if a used front clip is purchased it still must be totally disassembled and part by part painted and put on the car, it is just cheaper (from a yard) to buy an entire front end, than 'i need two fenders, a hood, loaded header, cooling, hood etc)...they will sell you the entire full front for several hundred less than part by part...(also as a side note many adjusters mistakenly take that front clip time of say 6 hours and think that is it! it's not! much much more time is to be added the 6 hours will tell you that is to r&r as an assy which of course cannot be done)....ok, i'll be back later, when I can read the entire thing as well as your links Mike....great thread guys.

Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:42 am Post Subject: Great non biased article on pros and cons of clipping link

Full body sectioning or 'CLIPPING'
By Alfred Thomas

OEMs don't agree with the practice, but clips are a way of life for many techs. Learn why full disclosure is vital if you head down this path.


Taken from the above linked article

Clipping a vehicle, or full body sectioning, as it is sometimes called, is a controversial method of repairing a severely damaged vehicle. Whether or not this repair procedure should be undertaken depends on whom you talk to. Some believe that it could achieve better results than attempting to repair the vehicle by replacing multiple parts, while others believe it is a risky and difficult process, one to be avoided.

And during last month's NACE show, ABRN discussed clipping with representatives from General Motors. GM does not approve of the practice and echoed Ford's position on warranties. Clipping voids GM's new vehicle limited warranty, any variety of the GM Protection Plan, as well as GM's new vehicle service part and corrosion warranties for each part in the clip, the automaker states.

While other manufacturers also have statements against sectioning, some do not address the procedure.

Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:58 am Post Subject:

Clipping and sectioning are different operations, we are also getting into a nomenclature problem here....what one calls a clip is actually a bolt on front end as I stated previously...Most of the larger carriers will not do an actual 'clip' any longer for good reason...sectioning...no problem, as you said Mike a pillar as an example....is a good repair often times...each repair must stand on it's own merit, no two cars or situations are the same...

I'm gonna take issue with you Mike on a couple of points..

Therefore the collision industry has allowed itself to become manipulated to support insurers by direct repair businesses giving deep concessions and discounts back to insurers in exchange for referral business.